Toyota plans all gas-electric vehicles by 2012

[Epidemic]

Theo,

could you explain you comments about alcohol based fuels.

You said they take more engergy to produce than they yield.

how so???

[viztech]

Gee, I just bought my first foreign car, a Toyota Camry.

It was assembled in Kentucky.

viz

[ollie5050]

I do have to agree with you MDdan, on the VW i have been a slight fan of VW over the last few years. However i howestlydonot think that 90 HP is sufficant for me. I like have 400 HP in a 383 cube engine. and matching torque. but for the cost i see a nice value car onthat list (VW).

[Theophylact]

Epidemic, there are huge energy costs involved: not only the fertilizer (takes lots of energy and fossil fuel to produce anhydrous ammonia) and the fuel cost for the machinery to plow, irrigate and harvest, but the fact that most of the grain or cane produced is waste (because we don't have any good processes to convert the cellulose, which is most of the plant, into sugar, which is the only part you can ferment into alcohol) and the fact that fermentation yields a material that is only 16% alcohol at best. The cost of removing the bulk of the water, so that the alcohol can be burned as fuel, requires that you distill the alcohol out or freeze the water out (reverse osmosis is not very effective for this). So the energy cost of concentrating the alcohol is probably the major input.

If you use the waste product (straw, bagasse, what have you) as fuel for the distilleries, you can recoup some of the costs. If you find good methods (that don't produce large amounts of toxic waste) to hydrolyze the cellulose to glucose, so that it can be fermented to alcohol, that will also help a lot in reducing the energy cost of alcohol. Those methods don't yet exist, either.

As a consequence, the energy cost of producing alcohol is equal to or even a little greater than the fuel falue of the alcohol produced.

At present, only three things are keeping alcohol an alternative fuel : Subsidies to raise grain, subsidies on gasohol production, and subsidies on dual-fuel vehicle production.

I wish it weren't so, and as you can see, there are steps that would help: improvement in catalysis, in separation science, and even in fermentation biology (yeasts that could produce higher concentrations of alcohol before being killed by it). But we're nowhere near there yet.

[samwichse]

And the reason the diesel has never caught on here is that the quality of the fuel itself is poor and poorly regulated (read -> tons of sulphur impurity) and so diesel engines end up belching black smoke over here pretty soon and pollute a lot more because they basically ship the stuff that doesn't meet europian standards here.

And ollie:

I drive a 66 VW beetle, 43 hp stock, maybe 55 hp with the modifications I've made. But it gets good mileage.

Say what you'd like about huge engines, but I could care less about how fast your car is. What I do care about is the rapid depletion of our fossil fuels. Seems to me you have your priorities all bass ackwards. Using an engine that big in a fastback is like sandblasting a soda cracker.

Sam

[Theophylact]

It also turns out that the particulate emissions from diesel engines are many times as effective in causing atmospheric warming as CO2. (See this NASA article, for instance.) On the other hand, the particulates don't hang around nearly as long.

[fosin]

I agree also MDdan. Mainly because VW offers two different cars with that motor and they both look muuuuch better than the other 2 you mentioned . They are more popular around here than the other 2. Have only seen 2 or 3 of the others.

Actually thought about buying the Golf model, but after doing the math it would save me less than $200 a year on gas and my 200hp car was the same price (after rebates). If I drove more it would definitely be worth it. Plus you can always use an adjustable boost on turbo cars for extra pick up without hurting hwy mileage.

[MDdan]

Originally posted by ollie5050
However i howestlydonot think that 90 HP is sufficant for me.

Well, the TDI can be tweeked to produce about 110 hp. 8)
Seriously though, 90hp is misleading, cause its a diesel and produces much of it's torque low in the RPMs. As a result, it feels much more powerful than 90hp might suggest.

Bottom line is that it isn't an econobox boring car. Good performance, great mileage.

[radio1_mike]

All aside, I do think it's a good idea for a major manufacturer to embrace whatever new technology is needed to reduce the dependency on fossil fuels and decrease vehicle emissions.

Sure there are always gonna be enthusiasts, who at one end of the spectrum want a big engine and lots of horsepower, and the other end will want small, efficient engines. But why the rancor?

All you people who bemoan CAFE standards and think horsepower has gone out the door are just wrong. Horsepower has gone up and engine displacement has gone down. In 1985, Oldsmobile introduced the Quad4 that got a little over 140hp w/a 4cyl- comparable to what may 6s got at that time. My '99 Hyundai (2.0L, manual) gets 33-35mpg and outputs 140hp. You did not see a whole helluva lot of 6s (pre mid-80s) getting more than 140hp... The SUVs of today weigh more, get better mileage, have more horsepower, and emit less emissions than the land yachts of the 1970s gas crunch era.

Why? Technology and market forces drive innovation.

The people on the left of the spectrum have to realize, that you can legislate people's choices in products. And conversely, the people leaning on the right, should realize that new technology, CAFE standards, etc... will get you a better vehicle in the end.

I mean really, if say, in 10 years you could get a Hummer H2 w/no emissions, because of new technology or even a trade-off of 5% of horsepower for that no emissions- wouldn't you just just do it? You'd lose what 15hp, but you'd gain the comfort in knowing you were not contributing to smog?

[radio1_mike]

And diesel fuel is really only viable when it's cheaper than regular petrol.

Up here in the northeast, I know more than one person who has an extra home heating oil tank, they fill it up and use that for their diesel fuel. Yes, illegal, but usually 33% cheaper than diesel at any given time.