Palestinians again.

[Epidemic]

I have been in a conversation with someone about the palestian issue. I thought this was quite true so I decided to post my words.

The person said my opinion would be different if I lived under the oppression and occupation.

I agree that I might have a different perspective if I was born and raised there. I have no doubt that they have oppression and no sovereignty. That sucks. But then again I also have the benefit of an objective POV. Standing outside the frey I see Jews retaliating and palestinians retaliating. Neither with enough force to do more than annoy causing more retaliation.

Good plan there, lets keep going with that logic???

An objective observer would see that if there were there no bombings you would be left with oppression. Funny thing about oppression these days, the media loves to beat on that drum.

The world community generally hates it.

Blacks in america could have run around bombing, and the oppression could have been increased as lawmakers tried to keep citizens safe. Or you can let the police dogs bite you and win a huge political victory.

Were jews not afraid of palestinians there would not be as much oppression. Less oppression happier palestine. It is a slow process but very effective.

I can not think of an instance where terrorism has worked. Peaceful resistance has worked for ghandi, DR martin luther king.

In the face of oppression in a modern world it is the only effective way. AFAIAC.

The tainted view of an insider is what keeps an ineffective process in place. You may not believe it but I am an impartial observer. I am not jewish, not muslim, I have not ties to either country.

I see an militarily overwhelming opponent who wishes to exist and feels that palestinians are a threat. This is a bad combination for palestinians. Their best alternative is not to let their hamas brothers appear as a threat.

Public oppinion will do the rest over the next 50 years. Perhaps less in this information age.

I would back the palestians 100% if it were not for the terrorism. Settlements make no sense, oppression sucks. But in the light of terrorism My vision blurs those wrongs into the necessary evil category.

[shahani]

I agree with the person. When you are living under Israeli Oppression (with heavily armed Israeli Goon Squads routinely intimidating women and children) you would not say all this.

What you inaccurately describe as Palestine Terrorism is nothing but their way of defending themselves against the Goon Squads and to fight their enemy.

They probably call Israelis Terrorists. Its all a question of which side you are on.

[Warthog]

Blowing up busses and markets full of civilians really does a good job at protecting themselves.

[shahani]

Look at it from the Palestine viewpoint. A highly armed, aggressive and cruel enemy occupying your land, killing your people (including women and children). What do you do?

You defend yourself by killing their women and children, in the hope they will stop.

Remember, offense is the best form of defence.

Of course, if you are an Israeli sympathiser, you'll see it different.

That's my point.

Everyone sees it different. No one perspective is right.

All depends where you come from.

[Warthog]

But in my mind, targeting military targets would make your cause look much, much better.

Anti-American Iraqis (I know this is OT) do the same freakin thing! Who are they against? Us. Why do they blow up their own people??? Am I stupid? Do I not get it?

[shahani]

Yes, targeting only military targets would make both Palestine and Israel look better.

But in such a chaotic, unorganised and complex violence, its the civilians that get hurt and killed. Each side maintains its collateral damage. Who knows for sure?

As to the Iraqis, I think they just want more violence and chaos to drive the US military out. They don't care who gets killed or in the way.

Just like the US Military does its mission, and rarely cares who's in the way. Everyone talks about targetting military targets but it rarely works that way. The primary mission is the priority. Saving civilians is secondary.

For both sides.

Such is the tragedy of war. Its a lose-lose for both sides.

[Theophylact]

(And therefore you don't call the attack on the Italian military compound in Iraq a "terrorist" act, especially in the light of today's lead story in the Washington Post suggesting the possibility that "this may be the war Saddam Hussein and his generals planned all along.")

When Israeli troops attack only military positions, they're not terrorists. When they deliberately target civilians, or allow the settlers to do so, they are.

When the Palestinians kill Israeli troops in the territories, they're not terrorists. When they target civilians in Israel, they are.

[shahani]

Not only the Italian attack but all attacks against US troops are legitimate. Iraqis are targetting the enemy. They are not targeting US civilians.

I can't find any fault with that.

After all it is a war. And the invaded population is defending itself against a hostile and aggressive military occupation force. Makes total sense to me.

When the US Military attacked Iraq, were they expecting flowers and wine to greet them?

[Epidemic]

The point of my post is that they are not protecting themselves.

rather the tactic they employ is causing them harm. Keeping the israeli population from saying it is wrong. Keeping the world from seriously condemming it.

It keeps it in that grey neccessary evil category.

I am on the palestinians side on all or most of their complaints. However I do no can not condem israel until I can see no justification for their actions. At this time I see justification.

The best way to the palestinians ends.

"Were jews not afraid of palestinians there would not be as much oppression. Less oppression happier palestine. It is a slow process but very effective.

I can not think of an instance where terrorism has worked. Peaceful resistance has worked for ghandi, DR martin luther king.

In the face of oppression in a modern world it is the only effective way. AFAIAC.

The tainted view of an insider is what keeps an ineffective process in place. You may not believe it but I am an impartial observer. I am not jewish, not muslim, I have not ties to either country.

I see an militarily overwhelming opponent who wishes to exist and feels that palestinians are a threat. This is a bad combination for palestinians. Their best alternative is not to let their hamas brothers appear as a threat.

Public oppinion will do the rest over the next 50 years. Perhaps less in this information age."



Their current course of action serves no one.

It increases oppression
It tightens restrictions
and it gets civillians killed.
increases mistrust
Increases retaliation
Increases resolve


What it does not do is.

Increase freedom
Bring in world opinion on their side
Save lives
destroy moral


What you so glibly call protecting themselves from an oppressor is doing the exact opposite.

Peaceful resistance will definitely yield results. There is no doubt of that.

[Aaron_J]

Yes, targeting your enemies military would look better but we tend to see this from a simplistic point of view.

We have the most powerful military on the face of this planet. There is no country we couldn't hold our own against.

That is not true for the Palestinians. Their losses would be considerably higher if they attempted to solely confront the Israeli military on a regular basis. They also could never hope to win a direct war with Israel so they have nothing to gain, except the dubious respect of the global community, by doing so. I can't say what they hope to accomplish by targeting civilians, only that they must think it is more effective.

This viewpoint has several holes in it though because it attempts to place a logical perspective on a conflict that defys logic.

This is like some bad movie where you have 2 armies that have been fighting so long that they can't remember why they are fighting.