On selective reading of the Gospels

[Theophylact]

An interesting letter (from an Episcopal priest) in today's Washington Post:

Shedding Anglican Blinders

Friday, November 7, 2003; Page A30

In response to George F. Will's Oct. 15 op-ed column, "Anglicans' Undoing":

I am fascinated that those who become literalists regarding comments on homosexuality in Scripture can read other teachings under "liberal" lenses.

In the Gospel of Mark, for example, Jesus makes clear that anyone who marries after divorcing his wife is living in adultery. How many who are dooming the Episcopal Church to be a sinking ship are married for a second time? Can they cast the first stone of literalism and tradition? That the Episcopal Church is weaning Scripture away from abusive, narrow and literalist treatment is to be applauded.

In the 1970s, the decision to ordain women broke almost 2,000 years of "tradition." Breaking prejudice and wrong cannot undo authentic faith.

I believe the Episcopal Church in America will grow because of its recent decisions. Many will discover a church that reveres Scripture without insulting it with cultural and spiritual blinders.

THE REV. JOHN DAVID VAN DOOREN

Rector

All Souls Memorial Episcopal Church

Washington

(The column isn't the only reason for singling out Will for mention here.)

[daveleau]

I am not going to argue on the correctness or the incorrectness of homosexuality in the world. That is not my intent. My intent is to discuss homosexuality and adultery/ divorce in the Church. Do not take my statements out of context as has happened many times in the past when trying to argue the other side of what I say.

The items talked about in the letter are stated in Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, Mark 10:11, Mark 10:12, Luke 16:18.

This letter is a condemnation of some churches, but not all since some teach against divorce as well (the only justifiable divorce in the Bible is for fornication, I believe). He has a point that sin is sin. It is equally sinful to break one of God's commandments (adultery) and to do what God calls an abomination (homosexual acts).

Both sins can be forgiven, but the problem comes in with both being sins that are perpetually committed. Of course, God will forgive sin no matter how many times it is committed; but the problem arises in the fact that people do not view these as sin.

The leader of the Church is meant to follow the ways of God put forth in the Bible. This includes all of God's ways, not some. Pointing out that "hey, these guys over here are doing this" does not exculpate the speaker of his own transgressions. He has a point that those who are accusing him are not perfect, but he forgets that 2 wrongs do not make a right.

The Bible also condemns homosexuality in 1 Tim 1:8-10, 1 Cor. 6:9-10, Rom. 1:26-28, Jude 7, 2 Peter 2:6 in the NT and Lev. 18:22, Lev 20:13 in the OT.

[M_Six]

Van Dooren is describing "selective righteousness" of which so many people are guilty. The religion in question is irrelevent. If you believe that a certain book contains the word of your particular god and the laws of your religion, those are the rules you should follow. All of them. Deciding that divorce and remarriage is ok but homosexuality isn't, or that birth control is ok, but abortion isn't, strikes me as pure hypocrisy. If the book does indeed contain the word of your god, what gives you the right to decide which rules are ok to follow and which to ignore? If you choose to ignore some rules and follow others blindly, then don't you dare point fingers of condescension at me because of the way I live. When you live up to your religions laws 100% of the time, then you can look down your nose at me. If I'm not mistaken, that's the whole point behind the "cast the first stone" story.

(I don't mean any particular person here; just in general.)

[John Prophet]

Well, I agree 100% that hypocrisy isnt hard to find in churches...as a matter of fact, thats the easiest place to find it...and yes 'selective righteousness' abounds.

One of the problems though is that when looking at others and comparing..is that you are setting your sights too low...you wanna compare yourself?? excellent...compare yourself with Jesus....not with other flawed humans, lol.

I know that some of you dont consider yourselves "Christians" or even "religious"..but I have had this conversation with Christians as well.....I dont even attend church at the moment because to me it has become so compromised that I refuse to take part in it....I feel that even sitting there week after week is a form of approval. When I do visit, my stomach turns...its like some sad silly charade....wherein the people have "silent agreements" not to mention certain subjects....like somehow each group sort of finds others with the same weaknesses..and they silently agree to not "rock the boat" on those things..but they rock it on the things they agree on.

When discussing these things with non Christians...of course the topics are usually abortion, divorce, homosexuality etc....well, most Christians within the church agree that those things are wrong.....yet they "selectively ignore" tons of other issues.

And if the Christians in question were in some sense "nominal"..then I would have no objections....but the scenerios I find myself in involve Christians who set themselves up as "elite", lol.

By "elite" I refer to "spirit filled"...these are those who have received the "baptism in the spirit"..those who claim to "walk in the spirit".....mainly those who have come from the "charismatic movement"....that just happens to be the type of churches I grew up in along with baptist churches.

I am amazed at how they agree so quickly that homosexuality is wrong....that drug use is wrong....that rap lyrics are bad, lol.....they agree on that.....well, they agree a little more grudgingly that divorce is wrong...because the Christian divorce rate is the same or higher than the average rate....they dont seem to mention abortion a LOT...I think skeletons in the closet prevent that.....

Those are the things they sorta harp on....ok, fair enough.....but wait....if they want to set themselves up as "elite"..and as those who are REALLY doing Gods will, lol.....how do they so easily avoid other subjects??

How is it I have NEVER heard a sermon on gluttony??? Well maybe cuz when I look at the pastor he weighs 350lbs...could that be the reason?? And that his average tithe payer is 50lbs over?? Hmmmmm.

If a young fella becomes a Christian and sits down to read his bible and he starts in proverbs and it says "Do not mix with winebibbers, [Or] with gluttonous eaters of meat; 21 For the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty"

Hmm, so now he sees he aint supposed to mix with gluttons....lol....well, good luck to him on finding a church to attend, lol. I remember once, a church I was attending, a church that considered itself "spirit filled"...they had some kind of end of the year meeting or something and they had the pastor and the 4 "elders" up on the stage...the elders were pretty much in their late 40's early 50's....anyway, they stood up there on the platform and..Im sorry, but the outstanding characteristic was they all had huge guts hanging out all over the place.

I doubt they are going to preach many sermons on "self control" either are they?? Nevermind that self control is one of the 9 "fruits of the spirit".

Are they going to preach on "self disipline"?? nah..although Paul often did in the bible.

SO there is a lot of pick and choose going on.

But, none of that is a reflection on Gods character because "not everyone who says 'lord lord'" is a Christian...and not every Christian is at all 'mature"....most arent....most think they can just 'hold the fort"...but it doesnt work that way, lol.

Anyway...to summarize.

Homosexuality is wrong...but so is gluttony
Abortion is wrong...but so is letting your body 'go to pot'
Divorce is wrong...but so is losing your temper every day
Crack addiction is wrong....but so is not being able to even function without coffee..still an addiction.
Enron was wrong...but so are you when you "fudge" your taxes.


But if I were to try to mention such things in a church setting (trust me, I have many times)..the people brisk all up and get all ultra defensive...making all kinds of excuses to justify things. To me its like people sitting in the living room in a circle...in the middle of the circle is a rug...with an dead decaying elephant under it, lol...its so big you have to look around it to make eye contact with the others...and of course even people two blocks away can smell it...but the people sit there and carry on glib conversations as if the elephant wasnt there at all.

And they want ME to join in on that kind of stupid charade???

I cant see it happening, lol.

And the fruit of their meetings shows....when you ask for "prayer needs" its 30 minutes of boohoo sob and how terrible things are...with a different "crisis" every week....their all sick, broke, depressed, bored etc........but week after week no one comes in with a "praise report" or a story of how they have overcome this or that.....so the fruit always lets you know what kind of tree it REALLY is. Yeah, they are filled with "a" spirit....but not "the" spirit.

If you want to know about Christians, whip out those bibles and do some searches on the "remnant"...and maybe a little on "wheats and tares"...and "the apostasy". The "remnant" is sort of like the few true Christians..the ones who follow Jesus everyday, who have CONTINUED to follow Him....hey, when you watch a football game, or nascar race, or boxing match....EVERYONE starts the race....not everyone finishes.

I sort of feel sorry for those who are trying to "find" God right at point....cuz they mostly try to look at "visible" churches that they see on the corner....but I hate to say it...but frankly God aint there to be found usually....he's been edged out and ignored.

In revelation, Jesus is shown as standing at the door of the church knocking..trying to get back in, lol.

[John Prophet]

Oh, and just to speak to a normal flame point, lol.....one of the true "controversies" of the Bible...is the fact that some of the commands have "passed away" and some havent....in other words there was a whole "old covenant" as well as a "new covenant"...God doesnt tell me to go sacrifice lambs anymore....Jesus has been sacrificed once for all now....that is one example....but there are thousands.....so in some cases, believe it or not..you DO have to pick and choose what to obey,lol.

The main problem I have is when people KNOW deep down that something is wrong...yet they argue to try to justify it...or they just never (as a group) bring that subject up..even though it is painfully obvious that it needs some discussion (the elephant).

The whole point of being "spirit filled" is so that you CAN KNOW what God is asking of you..as opposed to trying to "follow a manual"...see...."the LETTER killeth, but the SPRIT brings life"...so when I am around people with alll kindssss of bad fruit in their lives..and they say they are 'filled with the spirit"...I want to ask them.."which one?"...lol.

[nomaxim]

M_Six & JP,
Perhaps, do to the fact that man wrote the books, they may not contain the word of your* God (Persay). If you look at history records from 1-2,000 years ago, they often counterdict themselves. Since the Bible was compiled about 1,500 years ago from stories that were written 500-1,000 years before, it should not be a shock that it contains errors or counterdictions.

(Get ready for Battlestations )

Is it at all possible that we are seeing the evolution of the Judo-Christian religion.

Thought:Consider the changes in God's actions between the Old and New Testaments.

*Or 'his God' whatever.
EDIT:
And for fun here is God's Webpage

[M_Six]

True, interpretations can and will change over time, but as I've said before, religion should not bend to political correctness or changing values. Values are supposed to be based on religious tenets, not the other way around.

[nomaxim]

Why not?

It does and always has.

Why, should it stop now?

Is it because it is a change in 'belief'?

If it was a new technology, like say a great non-MS OS, we'ed be on it in a minute.

[M_Six]

I see your point and agree to a certain extent. Certainly the "eye for an eye" bit had to change, at least in the literal sense. And there's other "rules" of religion that are no longer acceptable.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is things like abortion, homosexuality, birth control, and the like. These are core issues in virtually all religions. To change them based on current socio-political whims is wrong, IMO. If your religion states that these are sins, then they become dead elephants, as JP stated. You cannot just ignore them or except them as casual transgressions. To do so is hypocritical.

[John Prophet]

Well, I dont see it "evolving" lol. I see Gods plan moving right along...the things predicted in the bible are certainly happening before our eyes....everything is shaping up quite nicely....with "quite nicely" being an intentional ironic statement....because the bible says that most people will not follow God and they will hate Christians...we see that quite clearly.....the time is coming when those who kill Christians will even see themselves as doing God a favor!

Does it scare me? Nah...cuz God already said that this time would have to come. It's His plan after all...so I am secure in that...doesnt really matter what happens to me down here. (but a violent martyr end would be nice, cuz of the EVERLASTING crown...better than an MCSE cuz that runs out, lol)

So if its "evolving" it is evolving like a play written by a master..and although everyone is given a choice....He already knows most will choose against Him.

of course, trying to fathom Gods thoughts is impossible...even when He plainly states them..so trying to look at changes between the old and new testament (or 'covenant') doesnt say that anything at all "evolved"...it was planned all along....God gave man (adam) choice...and he chose wrong...messed up things, lol....Gods plan was to send Jesus to live a perfect life and die as a sacrifice for those who will accept Him....in doing so he did away with the old covenant and ushered in the new...no "evolution" in sight.

Of course you may struggle trying to figure out if God KNEW that Adam would sin ahead of time blah blah......I have no clue...my mind doesnt comprehend Gods quite yet, lol. But He did say that the things that happened in the old testament happened "as a sign" for US...right now....

......the end of the matter is nearing...its like a woman having a child..the first month she may not even know it...for the next few months no one else may notice...but then it starts to "show"..it starts to become more prevalent of an issue..then eventually EVERYTHING ELSE must take a back seat..the baby is coming..period.

Once the birth pains start..thats it...no more planning, thinking, theorizing, worrying..nope...ITS TIME! lol.

And to me, I see the birth pains all around....not just wars, earthquakes, global shakeups, global economys.. etc etc...but the PUBLICLY OBVIOUS REASONS behind those things.

Osama et al attacked the USA because of RELIGIOUS REASONS....is that plain enough?...and then next thing you know..here we are attacking and invading BABYLON....boom baby...old school bible stuff on every front page and tv screen in the WORLD. Never mind that Isreal and her neighbors are also in tumult with the intensity escalating and no solution in sight......oh, you say 'well isreal is always fighting with her neighbors...WRONGGGGGGGGGG...ISREAL WASNT EVEN A "NATION" only 55 short years ago.....man cant you see it coming to a head????

(we wont even bother getting into the 'one world economy' etc that Christians have all along said must come...yes, its blossoming before your eyes)

I know its impossible for most to see....but people like myself dont post this stuff cuz its fun to spend hrs a day trying to convince people of the truth....I am just trying by any means to show a few people that there IS a God....HE is center stage....NOTHING else much matters...HIS plans WILL go forth..they CAN NOT be stopped or thwarted.

And everytime you see or hear thr truth you have to choose...either open up and accept it..or harden your heart and reject it....but you WILL be held accountable....cuz youll never be able to say "but, no one told us".

Cuz He will say.."uhh, didnt you used to post at that tech forum?? Yeah, techimo..wasnt that the name of it? wasnt there a guy there named John Prophet? Didnt he sort of speak of these things from time to time?"


I wish I could say I was joking but that is exactly how it will go down for some.

JP