1,200 weapons inspectors spent 90 days in Iraq.

[ClubMed]

The exercise cost $300m. And the number of weapons found? 0

At the Independent (According to David Kay, the head of the CIA-led Iraq Survey Group).

Just out of curiousity, CM, what difference does it make to you what the US spends its money on? The WMD situation has nothing to do with you, your country, or your people. Is there any reason you feel obligated to point things like this out?

Just curious.

[crouse]

Well he ALSO said THIS:

We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002. The discovery of these deliberate concealment efforts have come about both through the admissions of Iraqi scientists and officials concerning information they deliberately withheld and through physical evidence of equipment and activities that ISG has discovered that should have been declared to the UN. Let me just give you a few examples of these concealment efforts, some of which I will elaborate on later:

· A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment subject to UN monitoring and suitable for continuing CBW research.

· A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials working to prepare for UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN.

· Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological weapons.

· New research on BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN.

· Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS).

· A line of UAVs not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of 500 km, 350 km beyond the permissible limit.

· Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited SCUD variant missiles, a capability that was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from the UN.

· Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with ranges up to at least 1000 km -- well beyond the 150 km range limit imposed by the UN. Missiles of a 1000 km range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets through out the Middle East, including Ankara, Cairo, and Abu Dhabi.

· Clandestine attempts between late-1999 and 2002 to obtain from North Korea technology related to 1,300 km range ballistic missiles --probably the No Dong -- 300 km range anti-ship cruise missiles, and other prohibited military equipment.

In addition to the discovery of extensive concealment efforts, we have been faced with a systematic sanitization of documentary and computer evidence in a wide range of offices, laboratories, and companies suspected of WMD work. The pattern of these efforts to erase evidence -- hard drives destroyed, specific files burned, equipment cleaned of all traces of use -- are ones of deliberate, rather than random, acts.

READ MORE ............ http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/02/kay.report/

[ClubMed]

Whir,

The amount of money is not important, it was simply part of the tittle at the Independent.

However your governments actions affect the whole world. Perhaps your question reveals a possible unawareness? Maybe many Americans simply can't believe or imagine that their governments actions have far reaching effects? It would explain certain comments and views expressed here on the forum and elsewhere.

This is not a poke at you.

No, of course I realize that we've got our fingers, or tendrils as the case may be, everywhere. It's just odd that a citizen of another country would rail against the US so hard, knowing full well that it will only bring the ire of the community.

Of course you could say the same thing about the Israeli - Palastinean mess to some of us I suppose. Sometimes I just don't understand why people like to invite fuel when there's already a fire at the party.

I wonder if the US's power base is based more on being a watchdog, or control. It seems to most foreigners that it's control, and to most of us 'do-gooders' that it's being a watchdog (looking our for people that can't look out for themselves, etc).

Does searching WMDs have any correlation to that? For example, are we searching for them to protect ourselves, and our brothers in the ME (the Iraqi populace in this case), or do we just need to be in control of the situation and be the only kid with the big toys? And are they really that different of a cause?

[ClubMed]

Well I'm a member of this community, and when I see something I disagree with based on what I have read and based on my personal point of view then I include my opinion.

Of course I could choose not to participate in such threads, so as not to draw the wrath of certain members, however IMO that would defy the purpose of the idea and concept of having a 'forum'.

My experiences with the community and friends at Timo is superb. I've made many mistakes, blown some fuses and had some arguments with people on the board, but I have only been on the receiving end of attempted attacks and intimidation by not more than 2-3 members during my entire time as a member here, that speaks for itself I would say.

Of course there is friction from time to time in such threads, after all discussing politics is not like talking about cookies, although I wish it were

My longest posts and my most intense participation is mostly in threads about topics that have an impact on non-Americans and the Middle East and Europe in particular.

My participation in threads about national and internal American matters is close to nil, and is limited to pointing out one or two aspects seen from afar. But generally I see it as being none of my business.

If my comments are seen by a large number of fellow members and friends to be disruptive and tearing at the fabric of the community then I would like to hear from any members in the forum or by PM, so far I have received more positive communication than negative by a large number of persons, both those that often agree with me and those that often don’t.

I'm always open for dialogue

Which wasn't really what I was getting at, as I've mentioned to you previously. But don't worry about it. I seem to be in an odd mood as of late.

[ClubMed]

I think I get what you mean.

The differences boil down to where one is standing. The same event affects different people in different ways. For example when Bush says that Iraq has to be invaded because of WMD's then the campaign is going to affect Americans, Iraqis and any other protagonists differently.

You have to think about how this campaign affects American and Iraqi civilians. American and Iraqi soldiers. American and Iraqi victims and casualties. American and Iraqi nationalists, conservatives, liberals, fanatics etc..

While one side thinks of itself as a liberator, the other side sees itself as the victim of an invasion.

While one side sees itself as the 'goodie' The other does too.

While one side condemns the other side for what it calls crimes, it will be on the receiving end of the same treatment from the other side.

The opinions will reflect the above opinions. They will be opposing at times.

Some people seem to forget that there is 2nd side to every coin.

They seem to forget that while they see their soldiers as heroes, the Iraqi who had his family blown to bits or shot to death sees them as criminals, or evil people or murderers out to kill him.

While the Americans see the Iraqi soldiers as evil people, murderess or criminals, their (Iraqi) fellow citizens, fathers, mothers, brothers, sons and daughters see them as heroes defending the nation.

A lot of people seem to forget this. It's not surprising though, while you see many reports and stories about the families of US service men and women you don't see any about Iraqi families of Iraqi soldiers. We forget that this side to life exists in Iraq too.

When many people think of the middle east they see the pictures provided on the news, shabby streets, old cars, poor neighborhoods, dark skinned, bearded angry looking men, covered oppressed women.

A lot of people, both on the forum and some of my friends (not the close ones) were surprised to see the photos of my recent trip to Syria, one friend said “It looks so normal”. Was she expecting dragons?

The other side appears to be cold, full of alien beings, we do not assign any emotions to them but fear, hatred and anger. We think of them as being criminals, every and each one of them. While in reality they go through the same emotions as everyone else on earth: will i be able to pay my phone, electricity, rent bills? can i take my family on vacation? are we going to visit the grandparents this weekend? Will Hasan or Ali get the new bikes, games, books, trousers tomorrow or next week? etc...

As the saying goes:

One mans hero is another mans terrorist. And no one likes their heroes to be called terrorists. And I'm not talking about Saddam and government officials in authoritarian governments. I’m talking about the people.

[J-Excel]

Didn't read your whole post carefully ClubMed but I pulled this out of it and want to comment on it...

While the Americans see the Iraqi soldiers as evil people, murderess or criminals, their (Iraqi) fellow citizens, fathers, mothers, brothers, sons and daughters see them as heroes defending the nation.

I was, and still am, a big supporter of our efforts in Iraq. But I have never seen the Iraqi soldiers as evil, murderess or criminals. Just like in any group of people there may be a few rogues, but I would imagine the vast majority of them were honorable men just doing their jobs. To discredit the majority for the acts of a very few would be inappropriate. On the other side of the coin there are people in this country, and one particular person in this community, that see our soldiers as evil, murderess or criminals. This is just an inappropriate, and it is infuriating in particular for people that are serving or have served in the military.

Murderous! Not a female murderer.

I agree with J on that matter, but otherwise, well said I think, CM.