Staining and finishing cabinets

Well, it's time to start putting the finish on our cherry kitchen cabinets and we could use some advise. We started testing stain on scraps today and found all the Minwax stains to be somewhat blotchy. The samples were sanded very smooth with 150 grit on a palm sander and I was both surprised and disheartend with the poor results.

We decided that we probably would need to seal the wood first to get a more even finish and headed to the store to pick some up. While there, the guy in the paint department suggested using ZAR instead because Minwax stains are made with mineral spirits which is very thin and soaks in very fast. The ZAR stains gave MUCH better results, but should we still seal the wood first? Is 150 grit fine enough, or should we be using 220 (the ZAR instructions only call for 120-150)

Lastly, everyone knows that you're supposed to sand "with-the-grain", but does it matter when using a finish sander (palm sander) to do the final sanding? I say "no" since the sander move both front-to-back and left-to-right anyway. The grain runs both directions on frames, so it's virtually impossible to always sand with the grain anyway.

Originally posted by Fingers

Lastly, everyone knows that you're supposed to sand "with-the-grain", but does it matter when using a finish sander (palm sander) to do the final sanding? I say "no" since the sander move both front-to-back and left-to-right anyway. The grain runs both directions on frames, so it's virtually impossible to always sand with the grain anyway.

Guess who says yes??

Somebody's got to settle this! And if I'm wrong I'm calling for a best 2 of 3 just to make sure!

[NeoStarO1]

surreal.

Well my family been in the cabinet and Lumber Industery for more years than I am old and I have always been told to sand with the grain, so I have always sanded with the grain.

[Ed_S]

Most palm sanders I've seen actually have an orbital motion which leaves tiny round scratches, nearly invisible with a fine enough paper. But moving the sander can leave straight line scratches, or lines of tiny circles. Again, nearly invisible.

Put a piece of coarse paper on the sander & run it both ways over a scrap board. This'll leave large enough marks to prove the point either way.

My opinion? Yes, it matters. With the grain!

[sharder8]

I'm with Neo and Ed on this one!

Sorry Unc!!

Harder

BTW, try what Ed suggested!

[draboo]

possibly dig up a "random orbital" sander. you still sand with the grain,but the "random" movement of the sander doesnt leave any scratchs across the grain. this sander is used mostly for large areas of wood. of course,you must keep it moving constantly,for it will dig in if left in one spot,like a belt sander would.


edit: as far as sanding with or against the grain,you will get scratches when sanding against the grain with damn near any sander,with the possible exception of the random orbital. and even with that one,i would sand with the grain.

WHERE THE HELL IS KNOTHEAD??

brad

[RedFury]

As long as you have a fine enough grit on the sander, it's not really going to matter much for finish sanding and an orbital as far as grain is concerned, IMO. If you are trying to level the wood, or remove wood by sanding, then by all means, stay with the grain. However, in my experience with orbitals, if you are running high grade papers, the circles are so small, that unless you are right handed and trying to sand with your left hand and your not ambidexterous, or you have a seizure in the middle of sanding, you won't see anything at all. The point of finish sanding is to only see the grain of the wood and NO sanding marks at all.

Hell, some of our sanders can sand floors and not leave ANY marks on them, and they stop at 100 grit on jobs we stain....and that is with an 8" belt and a disc sander for the edges, with 100 grit sheet rock screen on a floor buffer to smooth out the transitions between the two sanders.

Note: American Cherry is a soft wood, and will show mistakes, such as sanding across the grain with low grade sandpaper, where you could get away with it on Oak.

Realistically: Anytime you stain, you should really go with known practices, such as staying with the grain when sanding and applying the stain to avoid problems such as blotchy looking stain.

PS. When it comes to American cherry and stain, it's similar to staining maple and birch...a lot of different colors will look blotchy depending on how the stain is applied. The most even look will be acquired by spraying the stain on the wood vs. brushing it on and wiping off the excess. We have to wipe our stains on the floor with stain soaked rags, with a guy following behind with clean ones to wipe up the excesses. The same stain applied to maple may look good on the cabinets, and look like camouflage on the floor because of the 2 completely different techniques ( I saw this happen very pronounced with a butterscotch colored stain on maple cabinets and a maple floor in a new house ).

Why are you staining cherry wood?

Any hand sanding, as you know, should be done with the grain.

I don't think you'll have much luck if you seal the wood first, as most stains should be sinking into the top layers of the wood.

We only apply stain with a sprayer on outsides of buildings. Even then, we brush it out. We usually roll it on and brush it out with a white china bristle brush. You also can just brush it on, apply it with a pad, or apply it with a rag. RedFury's method of removing it (excess) with a stain soaked rag works well.

How did you apply the stain? The rag method can remove too much stain, leaving the work either too blotchy or too light.

BTW - You can use steel wool to touch-up any mildly poor sanding. As a point of fact, you can use steel wool to apply stain.

Yep we are staining the Cherry. Not enough to hide any of the wonderful grain, but I want to richen the color and have it not so much like the floor color.

After looking at a couple different types of stains I'm thinking Zar stain will do the best job. It is kinda thick so you can apply and wipe with out that blotchy penetration.

I'm so nervous about this, Fingers has worked so hard building the cabs and I don't want to wreck them
Well actually I want them to be perfect. and I'm the appointed Stainmeister.

We need to stain the cabinets so they don't match the floor to closely. We've seen similarly finished cabinets in showrooms and a darker and deeper finish than the "natural" look of cherry is what we both like.

As for the palm sander, it does not leave any scratches on the wood that I can see. It's virtually impossible to always sand "with" the grain anyway because there would be no way to get a smooth transition where the stiles meet the rails. As I said before, everyone knows that given the opportunity, you should sand "with" the grain, and that's really the only way to do it anyway when sanding long/thin boards such as cabinet frames, but when using palm and random orbital sanders is it really necessary since they are always sanding "against" the grain regardless of which way the tool is being moved.

{edit} I didn't know she was posting too....

I don't have any fears about her ability to finish the cabinets, because she did a great job on the knotty pine as well as the mantles. I just want to be sure that we have as much information as possible so we end up with a finished product that we are both happy with.