America VS England (murder rate)

[Epidemic]

http://www.aei.org/news/newsID.12662/news_detail.asp

I thought this was an interesting read.

My conclusions are a little different but basically they nail it.

They appear to conclude that America has had a more permissive legal system until just recently. This has allowed for more crime.

I agree with that but believe that it extends way beyond that. We had a much more permissive society through most of the past 200 years.

We need community morals, communal judgmentalism and generally need to be mean to those who do not conform with social norms. Of course the USA as well as GB are not on this path. So we can expect more of the same. The only bright side IMO is that I predict that GB will slowly surpass the US for crime as long as the permissive nature of politically correctness continues.

With or without guns I think england will surpass the USA violence and murder rate over the next century.

The murder rate in a gun-free America might be lower, but it would still be much higher than the rate in London.

I could live with that.

[Epidemic]

I would consider a gun free america a more permissive america which would increase overall death by murder.

At the very least when the thugs come for me they will have problems under current gun laws.

[Vagabond]

gun laws only inhibit and limit the rights of law abiding citizens....

They also extend the reach of criminal types, cause them to be feared more and so on.

Fer example, in a gun-free world, I'd not fear Iron Duke Epidemic (for example) because I'd he's not packing an Ak-47 Assault Rifle under his jacket. It'd be an even playing (fighting??) field and I'd have a better chance of snorkeling the Duke and knowing I'd not get a bullet through my eyes.

On the other hand, if the Duke pulls out a 9 inch switch blade, I'd dead anyways.

[MTAtech]

Michael Moore points out in "Bowling for Columbine" is that Canada has similar gun laws to the U.S. but a much lower murder rate.

"We easily lead the civilized Western world in gun deaths, far surpassing even countries with similar gun laws (such as Canada). Our yearly total at the time of "Columbine's" filming: 11,217, compared with 381 for Germany, 68 for the United Kingdom and 39 for Japan. (Population alone doesn't account for this; the per-capita figures are just as bleak.)"

He suggests that the news coverage is what is different. The U.S. news is slanted towards showing violence which has the effect of increasing the level of fear. Hence, the need for more guns.
http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/r...8-metromix.php

[daveleau]

lol
Bowling for Columbine. That was the worst 2 hours I spent of my life. I felt violated after watching such propaganda and un-substantiated information. I feel sorry for those who were actually hoodwinked by his smoke and mirror show. If you want some real unbiased (it really is) data, I will gladly show you where to get it.

To remove guns in America, it would take 4 to 5 generations of hard work. You think the drug war is difficult, think about the gun confiscation problems that would arise. For 4-5 generations (estimate), we would have groups of law abiding, unarmed citizens ravaged by the gun toting criminals who wanted to do as they will. In England, this is exactly what happened when they banned guns. The only thing that is keeping the criminals from frequent Hot-Burglaries and assaults are the fact that the criminals don't know who is armed. Millions of Americans are armed with hundreds of thousands carrying their concealed weapons constantly and you have never heard of anyone (not one single instance in the entire US for the past decade) of someone with a Concealed Carry permit misusing it to kill someone. A quote that sums it all up is from Charlton Heston "Out of my cold dead hands!" The Constitution will not be bypassed!

[Lemon[H]ead]

I like michael moore. He stands for what your average schmoe does. I haven't seen bowling for columbine but i frequent his website and have read "stupid white men" by him.

To remove guns in America, it would take 4 to 5 generations of hard work.

Yah, might as well give up then, just say "sod it."

Millions of Americans are armed with hundreds of thousands carrying their concealed weapons constantly and you have never heard of anyone (not one single instance in the entire US for the past decade) of someone with a Concealed Carry permit misusing it to kill someone

remember the stink in the elections in the US when bush came to power? one case was when eight-thousand floridians were thrown off the voting rolls because the folks in charge of culling voters from the electoral roll used a false list supplied by another state, a state which claimed that all the names on the list were former convicted felons who had since moved to florida.

What state was it that offered Jeb (nice name) and Dubya a helping hand by sending the bogus list to florida?

texas.

The very same GW Bush stronghold.

The reason i'm mentioning this is because it took the BBC (a british company) to reveal this section of the whole election saga, while the American media largely ignored it. Just because you haven't heard anything about someone with a concealed carry permit mis-using it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Also i'm wondering how many US citizens have heard of the countries Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland. Just wondering as what you're calling "England" is actually "The united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland" or "britain" or "the UK."

England is a mere quarter of the UK.

[Epidemic]

MTAtech,

The point is that we have more murders with rocks sticks and stones then UK has in total. The fact that the political propaganda of michael moore states that we have more gun deaths than other countries is completely irrelevant. You are dealing with different social dynamics.

I have said before that guns are the tool of choice to accomplish the job of killing in america because they are available. But since killing is the job that the thugs wish to accomplish they most assuridly would choose an arrow, knife, or baseball bat to accomplish it in the absence of guns and bullets.

Secondly by banning the import and manufacture of guns will simply make a wonderful black market for the things and make another form of crime. We cant keep out ship loads of coke or trailerloads of illegal aliens from entering the country how are we gonna keep a truck load of guns out. You will drive up the price of guns, make criminals rich and all powerful and basically drive up the murder rate IMHOOC.

[daveleau]

There are no reported cases, period. This is common knowledge among those who carry concealed weapons and it is a fact- not something I heard. I don't make stuff up, unlike other people. You don't hear reports of this fact, because the media is heavily anti-gun. If there was a killing by someone who had a concealed firearms permit, you'd hear about it on CNN, Fox and other major news networks.

Maybe Moore stands for the average Scottish person; I don't know. I only know he does not stand for the average American. At any given time, no politician or political stance can stand for the US in general on such a controversial topic. I have not had the displeasure of reading SWM, but have had the displeasure of seeing him speak his propaganda.

As for the election: Uhm, How many military votes were dropped by Gore? Military votes heavily republican and thousands of absentee ballots by Floridian military were thrown out.

Both Bush and Gore won half of the US and half of Florida - 50/50. The Republicans stayed out of FL until the Dems began throwing out votes and trying to recount only heavily Dem areas. In this regard, anti-Bush people ar like the losing team in a close football game. They will come up with anything to support their cause and forget the things that are against their cause to conveniently make them look like the martyr.

BTW, WTH does the election have to do with concealed firearms permits?

The stats I have say England. I have not seen the raw data to know if he speaks of the UK or England itself.