The Riddle of Epicurus

[cracked]

found this while surfing the other day:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?



im not trying to prove anything or start any arguments, i just thought this had a good point and i couldnt find any fault in its logic. i was wondering if any of you see any fault to this logic?

btw, im not an athiest, im an agnostic. and actually i lean toward the non-athieistic side of agnosticism

drew

[osprey4]

Obviously, you've got a lot of terms left undefined, but anyway....

You'll probably recall that John Stott called this the single greatest challenge to the Christian faith. But I always found C.S. Lewis' position more intriguing, the question isn't so much why isn't there more evil in the world as much as why is there so much good? I think this was in Mere Christianity.

[caddmannq]

Here's the fallacy:

God is not the creator of evil, nor the defender against it.

Evil is not the invention of God. Man invented evil.

God gives man free will, for to control his will would make him an animal, and not a man.

It is therefore man's duty to fight evil, in himself, and his burden to fight it in other men.

It is faith and honor that gives man the ability to do this, and these things he must take upon himself.

[osprey4]

It should also be pointed out that according to the Christian understanding of who God is, there are things that God cannot do, yet it does not compromise his omnipotence. For example, God cannot make a square circle or make 2+2=5 (logical impossibilities). He cannot make a stone so large he cannot lift it. He cannot do something that is in opposition to his character or attributes (sin, lie, make himself less than he is). And there are things God chooses not to do, such as limit the free will of his created beings. The consequence of this is sin.

[sixf00t4]

right on caddmannq and took my post osprey4!

let me add this. God is both able and willing, but he defeats evil through humans, namely christians.

No. He does nothing of the sort.

[daniel_t]

It's really quite simple. The most common way to defeat the tautology is to deny evil, this is how most Christians do it at least. All that happens is "Gods plan" and isn't really evil, it just seems that way to us mere mortals.

Caddmannq's argument about "God didn't create evil" is a straw-man (that BTW isn't supported by the Bible where it explicitly says that God did in fact create evil [Is 45:7-8 & Rom 11:32].) Whether He created evil or not, he is either unable, or unwilling to destroy it. As such he is either not powerful enough, or not benevolent enough to deserve worship, at least IMO.

There are also a significant minority of people who defeat the tautology by saying that God is unwilling to defeat evil (the Bible certanly supports this view,) but we should still worship him because he is powerful enough to make our lives misurable if we don't... This includes people who believe that God cares nothing about us, but they don't think we need to worship Him.

I've never heard anyone claim that god wants to defeat evil, but is simply not powerful enough to do it.

I think we lose the plot when we try to fathom why God does what he does. That's the error here - reducing God to a size we can understand.

In our limited view of the world, and of the spiritual forces that surround us, we cannot possibly comprehend God in His fulness.

So when we question His motives, or His reason, then we attempt to place God within our own realm of understanding.

My only answer to the tautology is: have faith in God. Faith in what you cannot see or explain. That's actually what God has continually asked of us throughout history, in all His dealings with the human race. Trust him.

Cheers
Mick

[nunyadam]

how many tribes left isreal? 12? how many religions do we have now? how many can we trace back to which tribe? how many religions believe in there being only one god?

how do you know god isn't a school kid and we are his science fair project.

as osprey said theres a lot of terms in this equation left undefined.
by the way I believe in God. don't expect me to try and convince you. you either believe and trust in god or you don't.

[nunyadam]

Whats the bigest thing we can see? whats the smallest? what if the smallest thing we can possibly see is actually as big as the largest thing we can see? and from another point along the line the biggest thing we can see is the smallest thing someone else can see?

You and I could be a vast universe and at the same time be just a small part of an atom.

this post and the previous are rambling food for thought.