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Old 10-30-2002, 12:28 PM   #1 (permalink)
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DUAL CITIZENSHIP

(Folks: This was written by my old buddy Bob. He's blind, so please forgive his typos. I didn't try to correct them. Anyhow, I thought this was interesting enough to post here...Cadd.)

I thought this would be an easy topic. It is not.
I have two friends, (Actually I have more than that but this was to be about just two of them.)

One is a Jew whose parents were survivors of the German death camps. He was born in Israel and spent his first ten or so years there. He then came to the States and became an U.S. Citizen. He was taught to hate Palestinians. He is a logical, intelligent and, generally, reasonable man. When it comes to the Middle East and Moslems he has a very narrow and biased viewpoint because of his background.

The other friend is a native of Egypt. He did some college in Iraq and is a Moslem. He came to the States when he was a bit over thirty, has been here over twenty years and is a citizen of the U.S. His believes are totally colored by his background too.
It is a fascinating thing to listen to the two of them in our
discussion group. The most interesting thing is to see that the Israeli likes the Moslem even though all his background tells him not to. Most of that has nothing to do with the subject except to point out how it came up.

They both told the group they had dual citizenship.
I was shocked as I thought that was illegal. I have since determined that almost everything we "know" about the subject is wrong. (See the site at the end of this.)

I was 100% adamantly against dual citizenship.
Jesus Christ said you can not serve two masters. While he did not say it for our purposes here it is still applicable.

As long as every thing is fine between the two involved countries it would seem that all would be OK. Not true. The mission of our Counter Intelligence Corps was to protect us, not from all enemy nations but from ALL nations. Nations spy on every one else. Smaller nation have "stringers" just like the media has to spy on many nations as they can not afford full timers. This is not as dumb as it sounds. No one trusts a person spying for ideology or conscience. There is a much higher level of trust for those doing it for money. The first two types can change their minds too easily. The one doing it for money does not want to ruin his reputation and therefore lose his income so he is a bit more likely to be reliable. The fact is you never trust any of them but you put more faith in the money man.

The problem with dual citizenship is that when there is a conflict
between the two nations the person is torn and has to do things against the interests of one of the nations.

I believe everyone should renounce one citizenship or the other. That is not only not easy, often it is impossible.
My friends are sure they hold dual citizenship.
Do they?
Maybe, maybe not.

ONE: When taking the oath to become a naturalized U.S. citizen you do renounce your original citizenship.

TWO: Often the original country does not recognize this so they are still a citizen of the original country.

THREE: The U.S. recognizes this fact and it holds a higher place than the renunciation.

FOUR: the people may carry two passports.

FIVE: If a person goes back to the country of origin he may be drafted.

SIX: Serving in a foreign army does NOT automatically cause you to lose U.S. citizenship except under certain conditions.

SEVEN: Holding dual citizenship makes you subject to the laws of both nations especially if you visit your original land. The U.S. can do nothing for you in that case.

EIGHT: In most cases it is impossible to automatically lose your U.S. citizenship.

NINE: It in many cases it is impossible to renounce a citizenship.

TEN: If their kids or grand children go back to the old country they
are often considered citizens of that country.

It is a much more complex emotional and practical problem then I
anticipated.
Go to the site below and you may be fascinated with the complexities of citizenship.
http://www.richw.org/dualcit/

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Old 10-30-2002, 01:47 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Well I have dual citizenship for the United States AND Japan. I think someone told me at 18 that I would get to CHOOSE which country I would want to be a citizen of. I for some reason think that is wrong because if I am technically a dual citizen why should I have to give up a citizenship to one of the countries?
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Old 10-30-2002, 01:58 PM   #3 (permalink)
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caddmannq, ethically I agree with you. Divided loyalties are a problem not only for an individual but for a nation. In the 19th Century (and even later) American Catholics were often viewed with deep suspicion as having a loyalty to the Pope that might be assumed to trump their US citizenship in a pinch.

American Jews, dual citizenship or not, are often assumed to have such divided loyalties with respect to Israel, and the Jonathan Pollard spy case didn't help that one bit.

That said, the US does (now) recognize dual citizenship in many cases, as you point out, and the advantages may well outweigh the disadvantages for a given individual, and it's not for me to say a person can't handle the moral ambiguities involved.
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Old 10-30-2002, 02:16 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Theophylact
caddmannq, ethically I agree with you...
Thanks, Theo. Technically You're agreeing with Bob though. If you read my preamble, you've seen that he wrote this.

That technicality aside, I don't agree with the concept of dual citizenship at all. If the UN does one real job, I think it should be to sort out this mess. When someone is granted a new citizenship, the old one should be declared void by international agreement.

Otherwise, the rights of the individual and both nations involved are untenable and at risk, and their mutual duties to one another are unenforcable and even irreconcilable.

Individuals shouldn't put themselves in such a situation, and nations must not.
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Old 10-30-2002, 02:26 PM   #5 (permalink)
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If the UN does one real job, I think it should be to sort out this mess.
Agreed -- if states would yield up enough sovereignty for that to happen. The US sure won't.
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Old 10-30-2002, 02:33 PM   #6 (permalink)
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By the way, your blind friend types better than most sighted folks. Other than punctuation (a word shouldn't have been capitalized) and an unwanted space in "grand children", the only typo I saw was "then" for "than". And, of course, a spell-checker won't catch that.
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Old 10-30-2002, 02:47 PM   #7 (permalink)
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He thinks better than most too...

BTW, I lied a bit...I did fix one glaring error that everybody here would have jumped all over.

But he does alright for an old, one-legged, blind guy with diabetes.
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Old 10-30-2002, 03:06 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:

But he does alright for an old, one-legged, blind guy with diabetes.
this sounds to hard to be true?

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Old 10-30-2002, 07:14 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I am a dual citizen of the USA and Mexico. I was born in the USA but lived in Mexico for a year, so I had my citizenship there when I was six, moved back before the economy went Kaplut, and still kept it. And I could give a rat's @$$ if they want me to drop one, why should I?

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Old 10-30-2002, 08:16 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I support the idea of dual citizenship. My grandfather has dual citizenship for Canada and the U.K. Dual citizenship provides a connection to both countries for him. Being born in the U.K. he still has close ties to that country (political and social), yet his economic dependence lies in Canada.

It is a way to remember one's past, while acknowledging a connection to a new homeland.

However, dual citizenship poses one major problem. Travel. Entering on one passport and leaving on the other can result in very serious jail time. On the other hand, it can also allow an individual with a domestic citizenship a speedier trip through customs.

Dual citizenship also allows one to visit places that governments bar their citizens from entering. For instance, if an individual had both Canadian and American citizenship, it would be possible for that person to visit Cuba without extensive bureaucratic procedures. Simply enter and exit Cuba on a Canadian passport.

There are both benefits and dangers.

The ethical issue is merely null and void. Citizenship was only a way to tie people together around a common vision. That vision is quickly unravelling as globalization influences everything around us. If captial can flow freely among borders, why can't people?

BTW, I'm in the process of obtaining dual citizenship for the U.K. and Canada, just like my Grandfather.

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