Criticism vs. Anti-Americanism

[ClubMed]

Thread started as requested

I hereby quote myself from another thread:

Having gone to an English school here, I have many American friends. I have debated with them about politics a lot. And I notice one thing that they all have in common:

They seem to be unable to differentiate, or accept, that criticism and anti-Americanism are two completely different things.

Perhaps this is something in the American culture, such as when Bush said "You’re either with us or against us"? As if only two extremes exist in life?

This is not an attack at anyone here, so please don't take it that way. It's an honest observation, and question.

CM

I see criticism and anti-Americanism being thrown into the same pot all the time in American media.

Is this simply confusion, or a move to condemn and ban free-speech?

Is it a sign of weakness to accept or acknowledge criticism?

Is it realistic to expect or demand no criticism?

Is it ok to criticise others, but not ok to receive the same treatment?

Being a superpower, or better said, being the superpower, isn’t it natural that America, and the actions it takes, will be placed under closer scrutiny and will receive more attention?.

Also is it realistic to expect any other nation to agree to the American view of things? Would it be realistic to demand that the whole world agree to the Austrian, Indian, Chinese, French, Argentine, Australian etc.. points of view?.

Knothead: Happy debating

CM.

[Toadman]

Also is it realistic to expect any other nation to agree to the American view of things? Would it be realistic to demand that the whole world agree to the Austrian, Indian, Chinese, French, Argentine, Australian etc.. points of view?.

Oooo... good topic, and very deep. Gonna have to think about this one with all the complicated factors and influences to consider, CM. On the outside we do appear to be a bully. Maybe it's a by-product of capitalism. Anyone major in foreign diplomacy here?

I'd like to see this a sticky for our international friends for a week or so if we can hash it out without flaming. Sounds educational for all. I'd like to hear the "average joe" opinions of our multi-continental friends as well, sans politics.

It's hard being objective after the 9/11 tragedy and senseless deaths of 3,000 Americans, but I'm gonna try.

First of all, the statement of being either "with us or against us" is dead on because it addresses the fundmental question of who does/does not support terrorism. Terrorism against American civilians is something that Americans simply will not stand for and any criticism of our determination to root out those responsible IS anti-Americanism as far as I'm concerned.

What non-Americans need to understand is that many of the things that the US is often criticized for are the same things that have made us great. Once again, criticism of our fundamentals IS anti-Americanism.

If Austria was in a position of influencing the World the same way the United State is, you'd be the one defending your country and it's policy.

[Knothead]

Heehee, Fingers, you just illustrated what CM is actually saying!

Although it can be pretty difficult for us to differentiate honest criticism from America-bashing (esp. in light of the tragedy of Sept. 11).

I try to do that, though. I think I have an insight into actual criticism (which is not necessarily a bad thing) because I make stuff. And I often seek out criticism of my efforts, because I want it to be as good as I can make it. Sure, sometimes I get some jagaroonie who just wants to rip me up, for whatever reason. Often I get someone who's afraid of "hurting my feelings", and says nothing of value.

But every so often I'll get someone who sees what I'm TRYING to do, and can see where the flaws are, and is unafraid to point those flaws out, as they see them. I really value that! And maybe they're not always RIGHT, but I'm listening, just the same.

Same thing applies to the USA. It's unrealistic to expect that everything we do as a country (which often affects other countries) should be regarded as perfectly cool. I think it's a sign of weakness if we just disregard, or label "anti-American", what somebody else has to say about the way we run America and how it affects people outside U.S. borders.

And I'm NOT talking about the way we wage war on terrorism, here. That's a WHOLE 'NOTHER deal...

CM- for the most part, as a "foreigner" living in the US, I agree with you. But remember, this is particularly more acute and visible after 9/11. Everyone here is more sensitive.

And I can see why and empathasize. Just think for a moment if some radical European terrorist organization (and there are many in your part of the world) attacked and decimated the palace and surrounding compound of the Saudi King/Prince/Sheikh. For whatever reason. They may be against the lifestyle of Saudi royalty, may have a personal grudge, whatever.

Now, how would Arabs all over the world react? Hypothetic, yes. I'm asking you to empathasize with people here. Would the Arabs not treat any European/American looking person with suspicion? Would they not be subject to intense scrutiny at airports? Would they not be under surveillance while in Saudi Arabia?

Indeed, the way things work in these Arab Kingdoms, they'd probably deport all European/American people and not allow anyone to enter the country.

The US is a far more understanding country and would probably never take such draconian measures. But can you blame people for being sensitive to criticism and equating it to being a traitor/anti-American?

Look, I'm about as American as you. I have no axe to grind. I only try to be objective and fair in my observations, comments, ideas, and in life. And in my opinion, people here have been so hurt (physically, emotionally, financially) by the Arab terrorists on 9/11 that even if they over react, I think in all fairness, it's understandable.

The Arabs nations, as you yourself have admitted, really shot themselves in the foot this time and eventually will pay a far greater price than the US will for these actions.

Sorry for the rant, dudes, but that's my true feelings and I say it like I feel it.

PS: Knot, what's a jagaroonie? Like a macaroonie?

[Knothead]

So, then, Shahani, do you think that the events of 9/11 have rendered Americans incapable of accepting criticism, even when it's constructive?

Hey! How about our TechIMO friends who live outside U.S. borders? What do you-all think about this? (I think this thread is fairly BEGGING for your input!)



Shahani: A jagaroonie is just a funny word for a dope.

[ClubMed]

Yes I agree with you Knothead, and Fingers reply was exactly what I got from my American friends here They never stopped to think about what it was that others were saying, the moment someone didn't agree with their views and said "Hey wait a minute, I see it differently" It was immediately seen as being anti-American.

One has to slow down and dissect what is being said before making a statement. If someone says "America sux, and they are all losers" this would be anti-American and would bear no weight.

However what people are saying is "The US gov. could have done this differently" Or "This/that US foreign policy was misguided or too harsh or etc.."

Few of those in Europe who criticize America are commenting about your fundamentals or even way of life. The majority comments about politics, and mostly about foreign affairs. There is a minority that makes silly comments filled with ignorance, and for some reason it is these voices that often get most media attention.

Little is said about the honest voices that say it as they see it, these voices do not care to please any side, they care to discuss and debate such topics in a productive manner. And this will not be possible if any of us become childishly or reflexively defensive about the issue.

Terrorism against American civilians is something that Americans simply will not stand for

That’s fair enough and good, and I would hope that all nations and peoples no matter what creed subscribe to such ideologies, but you fail to see that such a comment ("You’re either with us or against us"), which was aimed at the entire global community was seen by us in Europe as an order or command to raise our armies and follow America’s beck and call against it’s enemies. Few of America’s enemies are Europe’s enemies.

So I guess that what I’m trying to say is that if you demand understanding you have to be prepared to be it too.This goes for all of us, and was not aimed at any one side in particular.

Well, if you wanted an honest view from Europe, this was one of them . We all have sensitivities, and need to acknowledge this with the other.

Lets discuss..
CM

[vass0922]

I believe i understand where cm is coming from...
I am an american, and even I question some of our policies towards other countries. For the past 3 years or so I have been with a canadian woman, and spending time with her friends and family has helped me see a bit more of a what happens to other countries when America shifts its weight. Its not always good...
I do believe America and Americans should be able to take criticism better and not immediately label it as anti-american. I've been called a yank many times before, that doesn't bother me. If somebody says they believe we should try to be more open towards xyz country fine.. I can deal with that, as it is a persons opinion. It is criticism. As cm said if they tell me America sucks and we're stupid.. well I'm gonna get a bit upset.

I have been directly effected by the attacks of 9/11 and I do believe that we need to kick terrorisms a$$. I think it would be a good show of faith that other countries that are against terrorism to aid us in our fight lest they be the next in line to BE attacked by these single minded people.
Do I totally agree that everybody is either with us or against us... ummm "not entirely".
Some countries may not have the military to back us, or maybe they don't have the finances.. or maybe they just flat out don't have the brass to take on a moving target like terrorism. I'm not the one to judge that.
I do stand firm that if you have the resources AND you do not want to be next in line to be hit you should take a stand and hit them where it hurts.
When you're in school and the bully comes up and steals your lunch money... how many times can you walk away before you get pissed? Well America is PISSED .. and we're tired of taking it on the chin.. we've done it too many times in the past (OK city bombing... the previous WTC bombing.. ) and we're not taking it anymore.

(yes I realize the OK city bombing was people from the US, and I believe we should tear those people apart too.. they are indeed terrorists regardless of their nationality)

Originally posted by clubmed
...but you fail to see that such a comment ("You’re either with us or against us"), which was aimed at the entire global community was seen by us in Europe as an order or command to raise our armies and follow America’s beck and call against it’s enemies

I do not believe that's accurate CM. We didn't demand military support from anybody, although I think the statement does certainly infer logistical support. "You’re either with us or against us" was a warning to those who might be opposed to our efforts to find and bring to justice those responsible for terrorism, specifically the WTC attacks.

*edit* If the rest of the world did indeed think it was a demand to raise an army to fight shoulder to shoulder with American forces, then I could see the resentment, but I'd like to see some evidence that any other country's government took it as such a demand.