Car troubles

[EndobioticChaos]

My car has a tempremental/intermittant problem. Every once in a while it refuses to start. Normally it starts just fine, cranks about 2 or 3 seconds and pops right off. But sometimes it'll crank, and crank, and just keep cranking and won't start. I know next to nothing about car mechanical work, so I wouldn't even know where to start looking. But we've had it in to several mechanics who could find nothing wrong with the darn thing. Anybody got any ideas? Thanks.

Oh, btw the car is an '89 Honda Accord LXi

[caddmannq]

Is it hot or cold when this happens? Gas tank full? or near empty? Could be several areas of concern, including fuel pump, pump relay, solenoid, computer, timing pickup or wiring.

Some Hondas back then had ignition switch problems. It usually affected the air conditioned models. Your mechanic should know about that.

Make sure all other accessories (radio, A/C, fan, etc) are off when you start it. Doors closed too. Take a voltage reading at ignition primary circuit, and fuel pump. One of these will probably drop a lot at a no-start event. Check fuel filter, and fuel pump pressure. Check for loose wiring at the starter.

[Brainchild]

Could be the Electronic control module (ECM) AKA Computer, starting to die also. They seem to act that way,and show no signs when dianostics testing, at least that's my experiances with them, but in the end becoming very unreliable.
By the way check all the fuses, make sure one is not partially blown, and just not making 100% connection. I'm out of ideas now.

[RayH]

It could be anything. It could be a bad kill switch from the transmission. It could be a loose and/or dirty battery cable. It could be a dirty gas filter, especially the one UNDER the car by the gas tank (as opposed to the inline near the injector/carb). Bad timing. Loose spark plug cables. Bad spark plug. Dirty injectors.

[Gomer]

I am guessing even being an 89 there has to be some sort of onboard diagnostics that can be accessed. I'd have someone check there to see if a sensor has been setting a trouble code.

Check engine on at all???? Does it light up when you turn the key to the run position?

[EndobioticChaos]

Hey, thanks for all the ideas guys. There's one more thing I should have mentioned that I forgot. On those rare occasions when it won't start, if I leave it sit often it'll start just fine in an hour or two, sometimes it goes a day or two before it'll start. And it might happen after sitting unused for only a few hours, or after sitting unused for weeks. Just thought it might help if y'all know it something that "goes away" even if you do nothing with it. Something like a bad fuel pump or a solenoid isn't going to "fix" itself if you just leave it sit, is it? And I can see how a broken wire can make contact and then be jostled so it doesn't... but if the car just sits there and nothing happens to it....? Anyhow, I'll print this stuff out, and see if our "mechanic" can figure something out.

Checking the fuses was the first thing I did. I found one that needed to be replaced, but it wasn't for the ignition.

[caddmannq]

Originally posted by EndobioticChaos
Something like a bad fuel pump or a solenoid isn't going to "fix" itself if you just leave it sit, is it? And I can see how a broken wire can make contact and then be jostled so it doesn't... but if the car just sits there and nothing happens to it....?

Strange, but true. Electrical contacts in a solenoid, switch or relay don't always make contact in the exact same spot. If they hit on a burnt spot: no current. But changes in temperature can make them move. Most starter solenoids have a circular contact disk that's designed to move so it doesn't always touch in the same spot. A wire with a loose terminal will act like that too.

But this might not be a mere electrical problm. If this only happens once in twenty starts or something, you'll probably have to leave it with a mechanic for some time for him to experience the problem and diagnose it.

Again I ask: Does this happen primarily when the car is hot or cold?

[jnas]

As a start for troubleshooting when your car won't start do this.

1) Get a sparkplug. Pretty much any sparkplug will work.

2) Take the wire off one of your sparkplugs.

3) Put the wire on the loose sparkplug and lay it down on the motor in a place where you can see the end and also make sure the sparkplug is on metal.

4) Have someone start the car while you watch the sparkplug. You are looking for a spark on the end. Thus the name sparkplug.

5) If you did not see a spark then the problem will be electrical if you did see a spark then the problem is probably elsewhere.

6) If there was a spark then put everything back to the way it was. Get a can of starting fluid. and open the cover for the air filter.

7) Spray starting fluid in the tube that goes to the engine or into the throttle body on the engine depending on your layout. (only spray for one to two seconds)

8) Now make sure everybody is clear of the engine and try starting the car. If the car tries to start then it is likely the fuel system.

Post back with your findings and If anybody finds a flaw with what I said then please correct me or add to it.

John

[EndobioticChaos]

Again I ask: Does this happen primarily when the car is hot or cold?

Sorry, I missed the question the first time around. Temperature doesn't seem to make any difference. It's done this on the coldest of winter days and the hottest of summer days. In regards to engine temperature, it's never done it when the engine was hot, but then the problem is sporadic enough it's hard to tell if that's just the luck of the draw or if it actually means something.

And in answer to Gomer, yes the check engine light comes on when I start it with all the rest of the indicator lights, and then goes out appropriately.

jnas - I'll try those diagnostic steps the next time it refuses to start. It did just fine this morning. Started right off without a hitch.

Thanks for the ideas guys.

[caddmannq]

Jnas has the right idea about the initial trouble shooting steps. The things I would add are these:

You might have a spark, but it's too weak to start the engine, rare (in these days of electronic ignition, where it's usually all-or-nothing) but it can still happen. A dirty or dying ignition coil might do this. Ditto, the coil wire.

If you don't know what a healthy spark looks like, you might not recognise a weak spark. Try the sparkplug trick when you know the engine will start & look at the spark. Should be a large & clearly visible blue spark, IF the loose plug is well grounded. You can clamp the base of it to the engine somewhere, or lay a weight on it to make sure it contacts metal.

Secondly, make sure there's no gas or oil leaking about when you try this. You could easily start a fire.

Humidity might be a factor too. Cars that start fine when hot, or when ambient air is dry might fail to start when humidity is high due to various ignition related problems: usually cracked/old coil & plug wires, or condenser, but also bad distributor cap/rotor, and distributor wire insulators at the low voltage wires.

Finally, I seen engines that would deliver a pretty good looking spark like this, but wouldn't start because the spark timing was wrong. That's probably not the case here, but I've seen cracked distributor rotors that would work sometimes and sometimes not, as the metal end was moving about on it's little rivet.