The touchy subject of English in Calif...

[caddmannq]

Should every US student learn English as a first priority? This has been the subject of much debate at my house.

My wife's parents and grand-parents were Mexican immigrants. Theiy barely spoke any English at all. My great-grand parents were Irish immigrants. Their English was probably passible. Hard to say...I never met them. My folks spoke perfect English. I took a little Spanish in school. I don't use it often.

So perhaps this cultural gulf might be what has us on the fence over the issue (of teaching all US students English first.) But here's the rub:

My wife teaches public school. She's beeen a teacher (K~6) for over 16 years. Half their students (and their student's parents) speak little-to-no English and she's convinced (by the "Educational Establishment", I think) that these poor kids should be taught primarily in Spanish, or they will fail miserably compared to the native English-speakers. This seems to be the conventional wisdom here on the left-coast.

Yet, my wife barely speaks Spanish herself. She graduated from college and became a teacher, and struggles to deal with the Spanish langage. The School district requires her to take Spanish lessons, in fact. Her English is so good that over the telephone you'd never know she was Hispanic. Why? Because her parents and teachers made her learn in English. She was never taught in Spanish! They wanted her to be "American."

Yet, despite the evidence of her own successful life, my wife feels that these kids (who's parents are poor immmigrant farm workers; just like her own) should primarily be educated in Spanish, and is upset by the fact that she is ill-equipped to teach in Spanish. She thinks this even though the kids from my her classroom are always sought after by teachers in the higher levels, primarily (I think) because their English skills are so good!

When she tells me that California's ESL (English as a Second Language) program is the way to go, I just want to cry and shout. Something is all wrong here. I get the impression that the Educational Establishment in California doesn't really want these kids to become Americans at all; and that my wife is brainwashed on this issue.

When in Rome.....

[ironforge]

I think that too..

especially if you are immigrating over to the US.. you should at least learn the language..

it is mostly for their benefit.. they will fit in better with society.. be able to obtain a wider variety of jobs.. as well as show they really want to live here and be part of america

[SysRq]

Personally I think that teaching these kids in Spanish is robbing them of alot of chances in this country...We speak English here...What good are we doing these children by teaching them a language that is not widely spoken..none...When I lived in Phoenix...i knew a couple of kids there that were super intelligent and could have made alot of themselves but lack the ability to speak English so they were hindered from going as far as they could have. Didnt mean to rant...I just feel that that would be the same as teaching kids in say Afghanastan to speak Russian or kids in Portugal to speak Spanish...It would help them in countries where that is a primary language but unfortunatly this isnt one of them...

[MDS]

caddmannq we had the same thing come up here resently due to this town is pretty populated with Mexican immigrants and so the schools started to offer what they call alt. ed for the students that can't speak english. My wife grand dad is Mexican and only speaks english but still knows spanish but my wife is only 1/4 Mexican and no no spanish. I only know a few things in spanish that shouldn't be post here. But I do agree that English should always be the primary lang. and maybe offer an alt. for those who can't understand the English lang. yet and maybe in time they will convert to English. Just for the record I have no prob.s with any race and I know many people of many races that are close friends of mine.

[vass0922]

ARGGHHHHHHHHHHH
Being in the DC area, I'm horribly annoyed by people who live and work here and no ZERO about the language.

Its hard to go to mcdonalds and order anything without knowing the spanish!!

Thats also my point
Where do these people that only speak spanish work?
Fast food, labor jobs, small factories.

jobs where there chance for advancement is small and they will not have much chance to "make it". Why? because they were never taught the native language. How do you go to a college interview if you don't know english?
How do you have an interview with execs at a major company if you dont know english?

There are many other immigrants from other countries... but there is a strong chance that if you ask them a question, they will be able to answer in at least a broken english. BUT THEY MADE AN EFFORT TO LEARN.

Quite honestly the whole topic is very touchy with me and pisses me off to no end. (not just the language, but illegal's in general)
(this goes for any country btw, not pickign on one)

[OuTpaTienT]

She must be brainwashed. We need to find some good, intelligent reading material for her to digest. It won't be easy, but if you can manage to just pry open the door to her brainwashed skull, just a little...just enough to get some logic in there...maybe it'll fester and grow.

Or maybe she just resents the Mexican kids and she is doing her part to keep them disadvantaged and insure that they never amount to anything in this country.

I'm sure that's not the case, but that is almost what one would have to think to believe the English as a Second Language is the way to go.

What does she think...that they can do their schoolwork in Spanish and just learn English , later? Down the road sometime? That utterly defies all logic. Do I even need to bring up the entrenched, stone-solid, iron-clad, proven over and over again, undisputable FACT that the younger the child, the easier he/she can learn and adapt to a new language. Come ‘on now.

Without question, every day that goes by that those kids are taught in Spanish while English is put on the back burner is just making their future that much more bleak. If she believes in ESL then let her know that she is playing a part in destroying those kid's futures...literally. The longer it takes and the older they get without mastering English just exponentially increases the chances that they will never master English. And without a fluent grasp of the English language I'm sorry to say (be it fair or not) they are going to be forever banished as "second class citizens".

I'd ask why even bother teaching them in Spanish...why not just put them out in the fields right now because that's where most of them will end up without being able to speak English naturally. I can say with 100% certainty that I know this is not what your wife wants...but it's exactly what she's doing if she is buying into the ESL crap.

[vass0922]

Just the fact that its called "ESL" strips it off all real strength against it. ESL means nothing... learning english SECOND after another language in an english speaking nation is in fact what it is. Parents think "ESL, wow my kids must be smart if they're in a program called ESL" while they really dont entirely know what it is.

Maybe your wife is unconciously upset that she while being mexican does not know a lot of spanish and now is being told she has to learn it. For this one minor reason she may believe "this would not be the case if I had learned spanish first instead of english" while in reality there is a strong chance that she would not be in a well reputed position such as a teacher IF she had learned spanish only.

I have no problem with people learning spanish as a 2nd language, but I strongly believe english should be first regardless of their origins. I think these people that want "ESL" are also stripping America of its english language.

[sharder8]

I hear ya' folks, and I agree!

But what I don't understand is . . . .

In Europe and parts of Asia, ESL is big! I've run into many people here in the USA, that have come here for the first time (on vacation no less), and their English is better than mine!

Now that I've said that, I grew up in an area where many of my relatives speak Low German predominately at home (some High German) and outside of the home. My Dad attended German School in So. MN when he was a boy. Even today, you can sometimes hear German in a cafe or store back home (usually my relatives ). You can go to Roseau, (remember that one Cadd) and hear Swedish spoken quite often, even in the cafes and stores.

My one Uncle was Mexican and he raised his children to all speak Spanish, but it wasn't to be used in school or in front of people who didn't speak it.

But the main thing is, if you don't speak the language, the people switch back to English!! In the schools, English is the main language taught and spoken, but in my home town, they also have Native American language classes. A number of Laotians have moved into the area, and once again, in the schools and public, English is spoken.

I remember when I joined the Army back in '75, we had a number of Spanish speaking troops, after a couple of close calls, the order was given that only English was to be used on the battle field (yeah right, hand and arm signals, keep your mouth shut ). If I remember right, it was in late '75 or early '76, that the Army issued the Official Order that English the the language to be used, period.

Texas has a higher ratio of Spanish speaking folks than California (I may be wrong), but you don't see the push for ESL there, why?

But than again, you have to realize that CA seems to collect all the brains that know all the answers to all the problems. Just look at the energy vs. powerplants problems that culminated last year, and all the laws and regulations in CA to drive industry out! The way they're going, soon only Spanish will be spoken in the candle lit class rooms and you'll be peddling your "green" bikes to work.

Harder

P.S. I'll catch flak for this, but the most beautiful thing I saw when I was in CA was the "Welcome to California" sign in my rearview mirror as I left the state for good! ''

[OuTpaTienT]

Sharder8, did you notice how when you left CA that right at the border, no matter which state you exit to, right at the freakin' border the road instantly transforms from shotty, pot-holed, and in serious need of repair to what seems smooth as glass in comparison.

California is one seriously f'ed up state. I should know, I live here.