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Old 02-20-2004, 04:34 AM   #1 (permalink)
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At Home Disappearing the Dead

Granted it is a very long article, but it is worth the read. The article deals with the current efforts to sell the idea of 'modern clean wars with few casualties'.

Title:
Disappearing the Dead
Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Idea of a "New Warfare"

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Executive Summary

Lets discuss.

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Old 02-21-2004, 08:00 AM   #2 (permalink)
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CM, who do you think controls the media in the US? If Americans are force-fed opinions through the media, they have to be controlled somewhere. There are many media outlets that have to have consensus to do such a thing. Kind of a difficult thing to do in a country with freedom of speech and of the press, with no consequences for dissent.

Alternately, if you are being fed opinions from decidedly anti-American media outlets (I include ultra-liberal news sources within the US as anti-American) that tell you Americans are spoon-fed their media in an attempt at mind control, and you are anti-American to begin with, you might just buy into this crap.
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Old 02-22-2004, 12:01 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Did you read the article to the end? No one entity controls the media.

The article is about efforts of the administration and the pentagon to try and sell the idea of a new kind of warfare that causes very little collateral damage while maximum destruction of the enemy and it's assets.

The point of the article is that while the administration was putting out information that was tailored to make American forces look great and to make American success and enemy failure look exaggerated the journalists and the media were accepting this information without double checking it, so the media, especially in America was putting out a distorted view of the war that was not reflected in other media around the world. Hence a perception gap was created.


Quote:
In addition to US and allied losses, approximately 18,000 Afghan and Iraqi combatants and non-combatants were killed during the main combat phases of the two wars.
These 2 wars did not last years, they lasted a few weeks (the main combat operations) and in that time period 18,000 people died, these number still do not differ from the wars of history, had these wars lasted a year or two the number of casualties would be the same as any war at the rate of destruction.

But did you see any of the American media focus on any of these deaths? Did you see the same amount of reporting about the destruction in Iraq as you did about the courageous American soldiers who were successful but 'humane' soldiers?

I have CNN and FOX NEWS too, I can compare them to the French, European and Arab media that I watch daily on TV (through our satellite dish) and read daily (internet, newspapers). The differences were staggering to me.

While European and Arab channels were reporting both sides of the story, CNN and FOX showed staged reports of American soldiers by embedded journalists.

And whenever they did report about casualty reports they were quick to place the seed of doubt in these reports so as to make the viewers skeptical.

Such as reports showing American soldiers ducking behind rocks and armored vehicles shooting at targets that don't fire back while the camera men were running around in between the soldiers as if they were out on some family pick nick.

There were even European documentaries about American journalists and how their reports differed.

For example an ex-nato officer was shown footage from American media, it showed soldiers walking through a field, next to a burnt out Iraqi tank, other soldiers were shooting at a building far away in the distance, the reporter said that there Iraqi snipers shooting at the soldiers, the funny thing was that some of the soldiers carried pistols. The officer went on to explain that when you are trying to take out an enemy sniper you don't use a pistol due to the short range, the sniper will be using a weapon that allows him to be far away.

So it was obvious that these were staged events for media consumption, and I saw quite a few myself so I can relate to what this article is talking about.

On to the next point, since 18,000 non-americans died in Afghanistan and Iraq, did you every see an adequate media coverage in America? Did the large media organisations that dominate the scene spend the same amount of time on these realities as they did on their 'embedded information' and that which they were told by the pentagon?

Read the section about the Iraqi marketplace bombings, most Americans will still believe that the bombing was caused by an Iraqi missile, this was the official pentagon report that was regurgitated by CNN and similar massive media organisations.

The funny thing is that even after Robert Fisk found parts of American missiles and traced the serial numbers on them back to the Naval Air System Command and Raytheon, manufacturer of AGM-88 HARM anti-radar missiles, the media stuck to the pentagon 'approved' story.

But a twist was added, the Iraqi government was blamed for placing it's army in the capital city. Feeble minded people and journalists did not bother to ask how countries that lack Americas high-tech weaponry and mouse-click battle-fields can protect their capital cities without placing their armies in their cities? For those that forgot most of Iraq's long range weaponry was destroyed in accordance with UN sanctions, most not all. So the Iraqis can't place their armies thousands of km's outside their cities.

But such critical questions were not asked by the mass media.

Quote:
The coalition's objections to Iraqi air defense tended to obscure or distract from the determinant factors that shaped the threat to civilians, which were:

A war that aims to topple a regime is likely to entail some sort of urban combat or attack -- at least involving the capital city.

Wars fought for maximum objectives -- such as national sovereignty or regime survival -- tend to be fought intensely, even desperately. In such cases, considerations of military necessity will weigh heavily against concerns about collateral damage.

Regardless of political objectives, any method of war that emphasizes aerial bombardment including attacks on urban, political, and dual-use targets is going to turn cities into air combat zones, involving intense duels between ground attack and air defense systems.
Consider that around 20,000 guided air-delivered weapons were used in the Iraq war.

Quote:
...Among these weapons, CEPs ranged between 3 and 15 meters, with the mean being approximately 8 meters or 25 feet. This is sufficiently inaccurate to guarantee that a significant percentage of weapons aimed at the center of a building will land in the street -- or in the building next door. Moreover, even given perfect intelligence and accuracy, most guided weapons in the 500- to 2000-pound range are sufficiently powerful to routinely cause some degree of collateral damage. These weapons will destroy almost everything within a radius of 60 to 105 feet...
Did the media focus on this at all? Did they invest the time and money that they invest on how cruel the enemy is?

Consider also that the pentagon claims it is waging modern war with very few casualties, so one would hope that they are basing this on some kind of statistics, if they do have statistics then they obviously have the means to collect this data during combat operations, but when Rumsfeld was asked about collateral damage and enemy damage statistics he claimed it was not possible to collect statistics and also not helpful to do so, for Gods sake, if the US army can't and doesn't collect statistics, how on Earth do they that they are the creators a modern 'clean' type of warfare?

Quote:
Exemplifying this agnosticism were Secretary Rumsfeld's assertions that it was "next to impossible to get factual information about civilian casualties." At a 5 December 2001 press conference he counseled reporters "to be sensitive to how difficult it is to know with certainty, in real time, what may have happened in any given situation in Afghanistan." Similarly, during the Iraq conflict, CENTCOM deputy director of operations General Vincent Brooks asserted that "the number of casualties is a figure that can never be completely well-determined." Asked to give a preliminary estimate of casualties, Brooks declined, saying that "I don't think that in any case of recorded history of warfare a full knowledge of all casualties and all secondary effects has ever been gained."

The administration's espousal of casualty agnosticism turns on phrases like "completely well-determined," "known with certainty," and "full knowledge of all casualties and all secondary effects." Of course, it is true that it is impossible to calculate a casualty figure that is both absolutely certain and precise. But this truth is a facile one; it holds not only for the Afghan and Iraq conflicts but for all wars and genocides. Nonetheless, some of the casualty estimates associated with these events are widely accepted as sufficiently accurate to usefully inform policy.
Critical thinking is not hard, anyone can do it:

Quote:
Along these lines Lt. Col. Dave Lapan (USMC), a Pentagon spokesperson explained:

It's not a useful figure to us. It's not a measure of effectiveness.... It doesn't really matter militarily how many Iraqi soldiers may be killed.
So how do you know that your weapons are causing little collateral damage if these 'figures are not important' ?

I could go on, but I think the point is too obvious.
And a final point, think about all the political discussions and debates we have had on the forum, think about how our American members have reacted to articles and comments about the collateral and civilian damage reports in Iraq and Afghanistan, those who posted such articles and opinions were (and still are) labeled as feeble minded America-haters.

But I guess this article is just 'crap' as you said

And if I remember correctly most (if not all) the articles of ciritcal nature have come not from the mass media but from smaller platforms that don't enjoy the money and the closeness to the political establishment.
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Old 02-22-2004, 12:49 PM   #4 (permalink)
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This was a very different war that any other in history. I don't disagree that there may have been 18,000 casualties. With the amount of ordinance dropped in populated areas like Baghdad people were going to die. I do think for the most part the weaponry was orders of magnitude more accurate than those used in previous wars. If we had used 1960’s ordinance in this war the casualty rate would have been orders of magnitude higher. There probably were a few strays. It's going to happen in war. But not nearly as high of a percentage as before.

Another difference is the amount of ordinance we were able to use. How many bombs fell on day 1 alone? There has been nothing like it before ever. More accurate X more of it = probable the same collateral damage as in previous wars. This war just ended a lot sooner with far fewer casualties on our side.

As for the war in the media, do you really expect the military to be 100% transparent? The media is just another weapon for them. And it’s a much bigger factor than ever before. In Vietnam the media worked against the military. Collateral damage swayed public opinion, which in turn affected the government with regards to the war. I would completely expect the military to learn from this mistake and use the media to their advantage. Even if that includes deception.
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Old 02-22-2004, 12:59 PM   #5 (permalink)
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No of course not, the media is not transparent, nor does it reflect the reality, and this goes for all nations not just America.

But the problematics were caused, IMO, by the willingness of journalists to go ahead with it no matter what, few journalists are known for their critical thinking and independent research and double checking of the facts.

To be fair, the Iraqi information minister was Iraq’s version of the fabricated facts, only he went a little too far and the deception became too obvious to miss.

While deception is part of any military conflict, when the media becomes a tool it starts to cause perception gaps and perception incompatibilities amongst peoples around the world.

Concerning the modern weapons, yes they are more accurate than older generation ordinance, but they are not accurate enough to wage 'clean wars'. And not matter how accurate a weapon is, when it’s a 500 or 2000 pound weapon, it will accurately destroy the target, as well as everything around the target.
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Old 02-22-2004, 01:04 PM   #6 (permalink)
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If anyone else would like to join in, please stick to the topic, it's not about the weapons it's about the media and whether they made the right decision to report like parrots everything they were told without being critical of the facts.

IMO it does not help the readers to receive a distorted view of the events, it will cause misunderstandings on a political level for years to come.

(If anyone would like to discuss the weapons please start a new thread).
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Old 02-23-2004, 07:29 AM   #7 (permalink)
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It is strange but our media has always kept the lid on enemy casualties. (at least always being while I have been viewing it)

American media does not include pictures of dead (a few freak examples slip by) but generally speaking it is a wierd quirk of american media in general.
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