GunAccessories.com Disreptuable!!!!

[Bartman1]

Their site says 8-10 days delivery..so after 11 days of no ship notice I emailed. Turns out, they haven't shipped, and dont even have the goods, but they had already charged my credit card.

They missed the shipment representation timing stated on their web site

They never notified me the item was not in stock to establish a revised ship date.

They charged my credit card without having the goods or shipping.

That's Three (3) violations of the FTC Internet, Mail and telephone rule. Something I know a tad about, since I was in direct marketing for 16 years.

so i canceled my order, didnt even receive an apology. Now I hope they credit my charge card like they begrudingly said they would. I have little confidence I'll ever see that credit.

I filed a complaint online with the FTC. These people are the worst!!

[nomaxim]

Welcome to RR.

The FTC Mail Rule gives the merchant 30 days from the time your charged to ship the item. They are also not required to notify you for 30 days. The link is for another companys BBB report but lists the FTC's Mail Order Rule;

The Federal Trade Commission's Mail Order Rule allows the seller 30 days to ship ordered products to the buyer unless otherwise specified at the time of purchase. If the seller cannot ship within the 30 day period, they are required to notify the buyer in writing of the delay, and give the option of waiting, or having their money returned within seven days. Credit card payments must be credited within one billing cycle.

BBB report for this company;

C I E Inc.
PO Box 2490
Indian Trail, NC 28079-2490
Telephone: (704) 821-4679
File Open Date: December 1999
TOB Classification: Internet Services, Order Product Sales - Direct Marketing
BBB Membership: This company is not a member.

The Bureau has requested basic information from this company but has not received a response. As a result, the Bureau may not have current information about the company

The Bureau processed a total of 4 complaints about this company in the last 36 months, our standard reporting period. Of the total of 4 complaints closed in 36 months, 1 was closed in the last year.

Additional Addresses
PO Box 687
Indian Trail, NC 28079-0687

PO Box 2490
Indian Trail, NC 28079-2490

Additional Phone Numbers
Tel: (704) 821-4679
Tel: (180) 065-3789 ext. 0

You can file a complaint with the BBB here;https://odr.bbb.org/odrweb/public/GetStarted.aspx

[Bartman1]

sorry, Maxim..but you are 100% incorrect.

I was in D2C (direct to consumer) with the country's largest department store for the last 16 years of my 32 year career. I was Snr VP of fulfillment and order entry/customer service for three warehouses and two call centers.
Our performance for phone,mail, and internet on time shipment was monitored internally daily to ensure compliance to FTC Rules to 98% or better. We maintatined that year round.

That said:

A company's advertised shipment representation is what the FTC goes by.If you say shipment in 3 days, or delivery in 10 days, your failure to meet the committment exposes you to FTC fine. However... If you do not provide a shipment / delivery representation up front ..THEN and only then...does the 30 day rule goes into effect. While that sounds like a safe position to take, the down side of NOT providing a shipment representation is that the consumer will seek out a supplier who has the best shipment timing, and you expose yourself to loss of a sale(s).

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES can a company charge your credit card prior to their shipping the merchandise, and it is especially agregious if you charge the customer and dont even have an expected merchandise instock date.

If the merchandise is backordered they have up to 30 days to extend their shipment representation... however, they are required to notify you of that prior to your original shipment commitment expriation date.

as far as those BBB ratings..as far as I'm concerned, it supports my contention. You can do better, service wise, than gunaccessories.com

[Bartman1]

Maxim..one last thing.
the quote you posted from FTC exactly supports what I said. The 30 day rule is only in effect if the company did not provide an upfront shipment timing representation. If you read it again you'll see.

They also did not notify me it was on back order and represented it as being in stock.

The rule for pre-paid mailorder (i.e. you send in a check with a written order by snail mail) is slightly different. But thats not at issue here.

Bart

[Steve R Jones]

Originally Posted by Bartman1

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES can a company charge your credit card prior to their shipping the merchandise, and it is especially agregious if you charge the customer and dont even have an expected merchandise instock date.

Quick question:
What recouse does a merchant have if they ship then find out the credit card is no good?

I just reviewed the emails from Newegg on a recent order and noticed they charged my CC and later sent an email with a tracking number.

[nomaxim]

FTC.gov

The Rule requires that when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."

Please note this part;

When you offer to sell merchandise, you must have a "reasonable basis" for:

* any express or implied shipment representation, or
* believing you can ship within 30 days of receipt of an order -- if you make no shipment representation or if the shipment representation is not clear and conspicuous.

Whenever you change the shipment date by providing a delay notice, you must have a "reasonable basis" for:

* the new shipment date, or
* any representation that you do not know when you can ship the merchandise.

"Reasonable basis" means that the merchant has, at the time of making the representation, such information as would under the circumstances satisfy a reasonable and prudent businessperson, acting in good faith, that the representation is true.

I'd point out the websites Shipping info, which clearly states;

Average shipping time is 8-12 working days - depending upon which state we are shipping to.

Originally Posted by Bartman1

Their site says 8-10 days delivery..so after 11 days of no ship notice I emailed.

They say working days, M-F, or roughly 10-16 days, depending on what day you placed your order.. It also states. "Average shipping time."

The website also states;

Any item that is out of stock will be back ordered for shipment when product is available, unless stated otherwise. All items are subject to availability and prior sale.

To me this clearly means that if an item is out-of-stock it will ship when available. Therefore extending the shipping time to above the average of 8-12 working days.

Originally Posted by Bartman1

The 30 day rule is only in effect if the company did not provide an upfront shipment timing representation.

I don't see anywhere that the website gives you a shipping time for anything under ten days, average of 13 days, maximum of 16 days, if in stock. If the item is out of stock they would have at least 16 days before they had to notify you of the delay. But, since the website states, "Any item that is out of stock will be back ordered for shipment when product is available," that could be extended to the full thirty days.


I'd also point out this part of the Mail Order Rule, I believe this part applies to your question Steve.;

The "clock" on your obligation to ship or take other action under the Rule begins as soon as you receive a "properly completed" order. An order is properly completed when you receive the correct full or partial (in whatever form you accept) payment, accompanied by all the information you need to fill the order. Payment may be by cash, check, money order, the customer’s authorization to charge an existing account (including one you have created for the customer), the customer’s application to you for credit to pay for the order, or any substitute for these transactions that you accept.

It is irrelevant when you post or deposit payment, when checks clear, or when your bank credits your account. The clock begins to run when you receive a properly completed order.

Note, however, that if a customer’s check is returned or a customer is refused credit, the Rule stops the shipment clock. It is reset at day one when the customer gives you cash, the customer’s check is honored, or you receive notice that the customer qualifies for credit. At this point, you may take the amount of time you originally stated to fulfill the order.

Originally Posted by Bartman1

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES can a company charge your credit card prior to their shipping the merchandise, and it is especially agregious if you charge the customer and dont even have an expected merchandise instock date.

Let me just repeat that part;

The "clock" on your obligation to ship or take other action under the Rule begins as soon as you receive a "properly completed" order. An order is properly completed when you receive the correct full or partial (in whatever form you accept) payment

The rule clearly states that they have every right to charge you before they take any action.



Oh, and by the way. Here is their business registration with the North Carolina Secretary of State

Agent Name:
Cohen, Wayne Philip
Registered Office Address:
4508 Old Monroe Rd
Matthews NC 28105
Registered Mailing Address:
PO Box 687
Indian Trail NC 28079

[Bartman1]

Maxim,
with all respect... you are misreading, and misinterpreting the fTC rules.

They have a completed order when they accepted my charge card info and order it into their system. That is the "date stamp" that FTC recognizes for internet orders, and can be accessed by them upon FTC's request.

All internet and mailorder houses go by "business days' so your 12, 16 etc days mean nothing. FTC accepts that.

You seem to keep missing the FTC statement that the rpresented shipment timing takes precedence over the 30 day to ship rule. I can't explain it more clearly.

Their "shipment timing" on their site was meant to infer inhome delivery, if you read it carefully..(i.e. depending on where you live!! get it???). If they havnt shipped by the 11th business day... and dont have the merchandise to ship to me... they sure as **** arent going to ge it to me in the time THEY REPRESENTED ON THEIR SITE. Right?

They have an obigation to state "backorder" they CANNOT ARBITRARILY EXTEND THEIR SHIPMENT REPRESENTATION WITHOUT NOTIFICATION WITHIN THE ORIGINAL SHIPMENT REPRESNTATON of the outofstock condition. PLUS they must allow you an option to cancel or extend to the new ship date. youre intepretation isnt important. The FTC is clear on this.

YOU SAID: The rule clearly states that they have every right to charge you before they take any action.

Listen, with all due respect... not only is that utterly absurd interpretation, you havnt an iota of an understanding of the FTC rules.

If you work for gunacessories.com, I think I see why they are inviolation of FTC Rules.

I guess you can just discount my 16 years as a D2C exec, including my organization's collaboration with the FTC in originally devising the Rule, and I'll dismiss whatever emminently more qualified background you may or maynot profess, and leave it to the FTC to pursue. I'll keep us posted.

[nomaxim]

Per our FAQ's, I have provided supporting documents to back up my statements.

Originally Posted by FAQ's

If a member encounters a situation where disagreement occurs, he/she should offer his/her own thoughts in a respectful manner. Try to support the statement with published facts.

http://www.newyork.bbb.org/Default.aspx?pid=158

According to the Federal Trade Commission Mail Order Rule, companies that sell by mail, telephone or Internet must ship orders within 30 days from the time the order is received. The only exceptions are:

1.) if the company clearly states a longer period in its solicitation, or
2.) if they receive incomplete information from the consumer, such as incomplete address or insufficient payment.

http://www.nmoa.org/Library/ftc/ftc-intro.asp

If, after taking the customer's order, you learn that you cannot ship within the time you stated or within 30 days, you must seek the customer's consent to the delayed shipment.

I also fail to understand how a disagreement over the interpretation of the FTC Mail Order Rule, using GunAccessories.com as an example, would lead you to the following statements/conclusions:

Originally Posted by Bartman1

If you work for gunacessories.com, I think I see why they are inviolation of FTC Rules.

Originally Posted by Bartman1

I guess you can just discount my 16 years as a D2C exec, including my organization's collaboration with the FTC in originally devising the Rule, and I'll dismiss whatever emminently more qualified background you may or maynot profess,

Yep, you got me. I have been hanging around this website for 5 years while secretly working for this company, just waiting for you to come along. I also do not need to brag about any qualification's. Anyone can check my previous posts or my Public Profile at any time, simply right click on my username at the left. And by typing my username into Google one can also find most of the other consumer orientated websites I post in. I sure as hell have not claimed to have worked for a unnamed corporation, for 32 years, that was secretly involved with creating the FTC Mail Order Rule in 1975. Are you a Freemason or something?
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0110456.html

The mail-order rule adopted by the Federal Trade Commission in October 1975
.....
.....
The seller must notify you if the promised delivery date (or the 30-day limit) cannot be met.

Oh, and did I mention that I do have a reputation here for posting an overwhelming amount of relative facts, and for being somewhat picky.

In conclusion, this company and its owner, Wayne Cohen, have no records with PACER. (NOTE: That Union County, NC does not have internet access to their court records, so I could not check there.) The BBB has only 4 complaints about this company in the last 3 years, none of which are for, 'Delivery Issues', and Bartman1 has given no indication that he has filed a complaint with the BBB, So I can find no evidence to support Bartman1's claim of, "GunAccessories.com Disreptuable!!!!." at this time. If the FTC does anything, it shouldn't be more then a warning. I also noted that Bartman1's review, posted on 5/31/07 9:02 PM, gives this company a complete zero rating. He found nothing good about this company, not even their prices? Then why even shop there. Since Bartman1 wants to make wild and illogical accusations, then maybe we should consider that he is a disgruntled ex-employee. (oh, and that is just a wild accusation, Please don't hold it against me. )

PS. Bartman1, http://www.resellerratings.com/store/gunaccessories

I cancelled the order and rec'd a curt email reply that they would credit me and to "allow 15 days " for it to be applied to my charge. No apology, no explanation for their failure and violations.
I have little confidence I'll ever see that credit.

Just file a charge back with your CC company. You are protected under the Fair Credit Billing Act, for non-delivery of goods. You will be refunded in full. Also please invest in a spell checker program, you even mis-spelled, "Disreputable" in the thread title.